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Episode Summary

Episode 4: The only thing stopping 80,000 pounds from crashing into you and your family on our highways are the brakes on commercial vehicles. Commercial fleets must balance safety for the public and their drivers with the economics of operating a commercial trucking fleet in Canada. The stakes have never been higher and one bad decision on brakes can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars.

This podcast is available on PartsForTrucks.com/podcast, YouTube, and all major podcast platforms. 

Key Topics Covered 

• Brake Safety Week in Canada found 12.6% of inspections led to brake-related out-of-service violations 
• Investing 8-10% more in quality brake components can significantly reduce total operating costs 
• One fleet saved nearly $100,000 by upgrading to higher quality friction materials 
• Air disc brakes now account for 50% of North American Class 8 trucks, expected to reach 75% by 2030 
• Proper brake identification requires understanding differences between manufacturers and models 
• Quality friction materials contain better lubricants, abrasives, and undergo more precise manufacturing 
• Thorough brake inspections must check component wear, air system integrity, and proper adjustment 
• Technicians must verify brake geometry and stroke measurements during installation and adjustment

Guest Bios 

• Jay Kay: Joe has been with the Brake engineering team for 30 years.  Joe started when the company was Rockwell International, then it became Meritor and now is part of Cummins. 
• Robert Goodwin: Robert has 53 years of experience in heavy-duty parts and has been with PFT for 38 years, he is now serving as our Manager, Customer Care Help Desk in Eastern Canada. 
• Phil Hutton: Service Manager in our Dartmouth. Phil leads his team as they service our customers equipment

Disclaimer: The Parts For Trucks podcast is produced by Parts for Trucks, Inc for informational and entertainment purposes only. The content, opinions, and views expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the views, policies, or positions of Parts For Trucks, Inc. Read more...

Transcript

Robert Goodwin:
0:00
And he said to me. He said the saving in that particular fleet of about 50 tractors and 90 odd trailers was in almost $100,000. By investing 8 and 10% more in that brake job he saved all that money that money.

Jamie Irvine:
0:23
In each episode of the Parts for Trucks podcast, you will walk away with tools, strategies and knowledge to make your job easier, cut costs and elevate your performance in the heavy-duty trucking industry. In this episode, we are going to talk about the only thing stopping 80,000 pounds from crashing into you and your family. That's right, we're talking about brakes on commercial trucks and trailers.

Speaker 3:
0:59
Welcome to the Parts for Trucks podcast, where we explore the latest trends, technologies and strategies in the heavy-duty trucking industry. Each episode you'll hear from industry experts to help keep your trucks on the road and your business thriving. Now let's get into gear. Here's your host, jamie Urban.

Jamie Irvine:
1:18
Now let me give you a little background on the subject of brakes as it relates to commercial vehicles here in Canada. According to Transport Canada, there are approximately 3 million commercial vehicles on the road. Of those 3 million, 553,905 of them are in the class 7 and 8 category, meaning they weigh 11,794 kilograms or more, and this is according to the most up-to-date statistics that we have, which brings us up to 2023. So those numbers get us into the ballpark of what the condition is today on our Canadian roads. Today on our Canadian roads, brake Safety Week will be conducted this year between August 24th and 30th 2025. Last year, the CVSA, those 1,926 inspections 243 of those inspections led to brake-related out-of-service violations. That means that 12.6% of the inspections done here in Canada ended with a brake-related out-of-service violation. So there's obviously room for improvement.

Jamie Irvine:
2:49
I'm sure you've got some questions about brakes. I've got some questions about brakes. Things that I want to know are what's the best brakes for trucks that are going to be in the Canadian market, that are going to travel on Canadian roads, dealing with the kind of unique Canadian conditions that we often experience? Another question is how do you figure out what the break you just chose for your commercial truck or trailer is going to cost you in total, not just the purchase price but the total cost. And what's happening when it comes to the types of brakes that we're seeing on commercial trucks and trailers? The S-cam, or foundation brakes have been very consistent for many decades, but we also have seen the emergence of air disc brake technology, which is advancing quite rapidly. So what's the story there? It's these kinds of questions that we're going to answer in today's episode, which leads me to our first guest.

Jamie Irvine:
3:42
Our first guest is Joe Kay. It's these kinds of questions that we're going to answer in today's episode which leads me to our first guest. Our first guest is Joe Kay. He's the director of brake engineering North America for Cummins Meritor. Now Joe has been with the brake engineering team for 30 years. Joe started when the company was Rockwell International. He has been with the company through several changes when they became Meritor and now they're part of Cummins. He has expertise in everything related to both foundation brakes and air disc brakes and all of the components, and as the director of brake engineering, he works with both the original equipment and aftermarket team. So this is someone who we can really really benefit from his knowledge. Joe, welcome to the Parts for Trucks podcast.

Jay Kay:
4:35
So glad to have you here. Yeah, thanks a lot. I'm kind of excited to do this. I always like to share some of my knowledge that I've gained over the last 30 years in brake systems, so hopefully we can get some good answers for you today.

Jamie Irvine:
4:44
Well, and brakes are kind of important, right? Because when you're talking about stopping 80,000 pounds from smashing into you and your family or careening off one of our highways, brakes are kind of important. So let me ask you something. If you're operating a commercial truck and trailer trailer with air brakes what typically are the top one or two problems involved in making sure that you are getting the best performance out of your brakes and that everything is going well?

Jay Kay:
5:15
We always recommend do your service intervals, make sure operators are going around looking at your vehicle. Just from your CDL operation license. We always recommend that, and so brake health is a big piece of it as far as, when it comes down to, you know like what kind of things you know are typically seen happening. You know your brake pad life and drum or rotor life, depending if you're running disc or drum, but that's usually some of the bigger things that you know there happen. You know brakes they use what we call a wearable friction material. You know so. You know we haven't come up with anything, you know, earth shattering or magical, so you know the brake pads will still wear. You know there's a energy exchange that we want to make sure happens correctly in order for that vehicle to stop. You know, in the distance that it needs to. You know so.

Jay Kay:
6:05
Then the other thing is like your drum or your rotor, making sure that that's, you know, very functional, in good shape, no cracks, no missing pieces, things like that. And these are some of the basic things that the Department of Transportation will look at. You know, if they're stopping your vehicle and taking a look at it too, they kind of start with those pieces Then they'll. Then they'll kind of go through the brake system and you know, make sure the slack adjuster if you have a drum brake it's really easy to check to see if your your brake is functioning. They'll have you apply the brake and you know like if your your brake stroke is too long may indicate that you got a slack adjuster issue and you'd have to change that component.

Jamie Irvine:
6:43
Well, that brings me to selecting the right friction material for your vocation and making sure that you're matching up the friction material that you're buying, the components that you're buying, matching that up to the actual needs of the environment that you're operating in. It's a little more complex than I think a lot of people realize and certainly when we get a chance to talk to people with your level of experience, it's pretty quickly we can understand why this is such a complex answer and obviously it's important for distributors like us to be able to have this information to guide our customers to make good decisions when we're recommending your products as the manufacturer. So let me ask you let's start right at the beginning 101, how does friction material actually work?

Jay Kay:
7:33
In order to retard the vehicle or stop the vehicle, we have to apply a very large force to the brake shoe or the brake pad and then that brake pad rubs up against the drum or the rotor. That interaction causes friction. It causes heat, you know, and that heat is what we call. It's a thermal exchange. That's how the energy exchange happens. You probably heard it, you know, kind of at high levels. But the function of that brake friction material is to do just that it. It's to rub against the drum and, you know, create that energy exchange.

Jay Kay:
8:07
You know there's a lot of different elements that actually get used in friction materials and you know kind of a theory you get what you pay for, right, you know, with all materials and everything, and so, and it kind of goes into, you know, like what the fleet's objective is and what they're trying to get out of it too. If, if you got a fleet that's running lots of miles and you know they they don't really use the brakes very often or not, you know very lightly, you know they're they might be looking at just like doing one brake change, you know for the life of their vehicle, you know at some point, whereas otherets, you know, you know, the other end of the scale is like a transit or, um, maybe a refuse vehicle that does a lot of stops, you know every, you know every quarter mile or so they're just hitting the brakes really hard and so they'll wear a different temperature, wear at different rates, they'll wear at different temperatures. I always recommend you know, talking to you know distributors like yourself trying to, you know, get, you know, get a match that that they, like you know, there could be. You know, talking to you know, distributors like yourself trying to, you know, get, you know, get a match that they, like you know, there could be, you know, a good combinations for sure.

Jamie Irvine:
9:10
So this is one of the reasons why we encourage our outside salespeople and our counter people, our branches, to work closely with our suppliers, because you have the expertise on the product, we have the knowledge of the customer's specific needs and we can bring that together into a solution. You said something a moment ago that caught my attention. You alluded to the fact that you rarely get more than you pay for. So when somebody puts together a cheap or low-cost friction, they have to take something out of the material. What do they typically take out of the material to bring the cost down on the friction material, and what is the result of taking those things out?

Jay Kay:
9:54
It's usually like in those lubricants and in the abrasives the size of the abrasive materials some of the cost is even in you know how pure it is has an effect, and so you know it's just like anything the more processing you do to get you know something pure, the cost is going to go up right. And so these are some of the trade-offs that you can do and you know, in some cases it works fine. You know we always, you know, recommend, I think no-transcript it.

Jamie Irvine:
10:56
If you're in Canada, you have to meet the minimum braking distances set out in the Canadian motor vehicle safety standards. So when a supplier sells brakes to the Canadian market, they have to meet that standard, just like they do in the United States. And so that means that even if you do buy a lower quality or, let's say, a lower priced friction material, your vehicle will stop in that distance and will meet that requirement. But I think you said the key thing how long will that break last? Right, because that's what ends up happening when you take out all of this high quality material, you end up impacting the performance. Talk to me a little bit more about that.

Jay Kay:
11:40
You can kind of think of it like a chocolate chip cookie, right. That you can kind of think of it like a chocolate chip cookie, right? If we both made up a batch of cookies and if you use a little bit more baking soda and I use a little bit more flour, that formula could be. It'll be different, right? The cookie will look different, it'll taste different, everything will be different.

Jay Kay:
11:59
So what we want to do with friction material is make sure the total package including you know, like the quality and how how well everything um gets measured and then how well it gets, you know, mixed together and then um and it goes into a like a mold where it's, you know, put in, you got to put it in at the right amounts and and it gets pressed into the right shape so we get the right density of the material.

Jay Kay:
12:27
Then it goes from there to go into a curing oven and you want to make sure that you know it's cured in the oven, you know, for the right amount of time and at the right, at the right temperature to get a pure cure. So you know it's kind of a combination of all these things I'm saying it makes a really good quality type of friction material. You know from the elements that we put in all the way through, you know, taking it out of the oven and labeling it at the end of the day as well yeah, so you're buying a cheap stale chocolate chip cookie with three chocolate chips in it, or you're buying some really good chocolate chunk cookies filled with all the good stuff, right?

Jay Kay:
13:02
so it's a good. It's a good illustration. It'll fall apart on you and if it's baked just right, so it's a good illustration. It'll fall apart on you and if it's baked just right it'll taste good and yeah, so.

Jamie Irvine:
13:09
Exactly, yeah, well, chocolate chip cookies are my favorite cookies. So I wasn't expecting to talk about that today.

Jamie Irvine:
13:16
Okay, so again, just to reiterate this point if you are trying to save money by buying lower quality friction that sacrifices performance when you need it, it's going to drive up your total cost. Later in the episode we are going to supply you with a couple use cases from some of our customers who experienced this firsthand. It increased their purchase price a little bit, but it dramatically decreased their total cost of operation. So stay with us for that little bit, but it dramatically decreased their total cost of operation. So stay with us for that. Now I want to shift gears a little bit and talk about a couple other subjects related to brakes. Okay, so to our audience on YouTube. I want you to put in the comments right now what percentage of commercial trucks on North American roads have air disc brakes. So we're just talking about trucks here. Is it 12 to 15%, 18 to 25%, 26 to 30% or is it closer to 50%? Put it in the comments and we're going to answer that question in just a minute.

Jamie Irvine:
14:17
So let's talk about how brakes were very consistent for many decades. Early in my career it was all S-cam brakes, pretty consistent, same products. There was some changes to the friction material. There was some changes to design, but this was slow and over a number of years. And then we had the introduction of air disc brake, which really promised a lot but adoption of it was very slow. There's been several iterations of AirDisc breaks and it seems to now be catching on. So tell me a little bit from your perspective, like let's talk about the history of AirDisc break, and why was it so slow to come on and for people to adopt it and why now is it becoming more popular?

Jay Kay:
15:02
30 years ago I got hired into it was Rockwell at the time and I got hired in to work on the new disc breaking mode because it was coming on. It was going to be. You know, take on the. You know everything in the world. I would say the biggest issue with it is like acquisition cost. You know was really slow to take off and that's probably been one of the bigger drivers you know with delaying the implementation of it. We've done a really good job with that. Getting that piece down. It was another element that kind of it was hurting.

Jay Kay:
15:37
The disc brake piece was and you're probably familiar with this getting service parts out there. That problem is I don't think it's completely solved, but it's way, way better than it ever has. It does bring a nice performance. You know, and anybody that's driving their passenger car right now, they're all disc brakes. They stop very consistently, know, consistently, very evenly. Disc brakes has kind of helped, you know. You know, bring that that feel to them where you know like I'm sure you know, like some people that have driven like even older drum brakes, right, you gotta make sure you're holding on to that wheel with both hands and um, you know they do very well. But you know, in emergency situations and things like that, I think you know overall the performance of a disc brake will just give a smoother, you know, more consistent um stop yeah, between amt uh transmissions and disc brakes, uh, trucks have come a long way, uh, compared to those old days, for sure.

Jamie Irvine:
16:36
so let's get to uh, what percentage of commercial vehicles have S-cam? What percentage of vehicles have air disc brakes? So we asked that question a little earlier. What's the answer? How many trucks and trailers in North America are running air disc brake right now?

Jay Kay:
16:50
Our data has shown we're about 50-50 with disc brakes and drum brakes. Okay, on trailers were about 15, uh, one five on disc brakes for trailers and the remainder drum brakes on, um, like medium duty trucks. Uh, you know that kind of uh combination were a similar, about about 15 disc brakes on trucks. You know market hasn't quite seen the big benefits to go after the disc brakes. We see a trend to keep going up overall in disc brakes. In fact by 2030, we're projecting somewhere around 75%.

Jamie Irvine:
17:34
So 50%, that's actually a higher number than I actually thought originally. I personally thought it was closer to like 30%. So on North American Class 8 trucks, we're talking about 50% now being on air disc brake, and that's going to grow. So what did you put in the comments? Were you right? Let me know if you were right. Thank you so much, Joe, for coming on and sharing with us your extensive knowledge. I really appreciate you being on the Parts for Trucks podcast.

Jay Kay:
18:00
Yep Anytime I can share it. I enjoy these kinds of things.

Jamie Irvine:
18:05
What a great interview. Joe has such a wealth of experience and it's this kind of partnership with our vendors that Parts for Trucks is working really hard to bring you the subject matter experts who can talk about the products that are in the market with such a authority and with so much great information to help us out. Now our next guest is a Parts for Trucks legend and in this discussion we're going to go deep into the financial impact of what you choose when you're buying brakes for your commercial trucks and trailers. We're going to talk about how to identify the brakes and give you almost like a little mini masterclass, and it's really my pleasure to introduce our next guest. Robert Goodwin is the manager of Customer Care Help Desk in Eastern Canada for Parts for Trucks. Robert has 53 years of experience in heavy-duty parts. Of that 53 years, he spent the last 38 years with Parts for Trucks. Robert, welcome to the Parts for Trucks podcast. Very happy to have you here.

Robert Goodwin:
19:16
Thank you very much, Jamie.

Jamie Irvine:
19:17
I appreciate the invite how much does it cost when you use cheap breaks that need to be changed more regularly? So when you think about breaks, people often just look at the purchase price. Right, but how much does it actually cost somebody if they use a cheap break that's not matched to their vocation or their application and they end up having to change the brakes more regularly?

Robert Goodwin:
19:47
From my experience from years past and up until now, I've seen people make big mistakes, buying the wrong friction material. I've seen them have to do brake work over. That's double double the work and it's double the time and it gobbles up shop time and it's just a bad scene.

Jamie Irvine:
20:00
Yeah. So let's break it down. You make a good point. So first of all you look at the purchase price of the original friction material and you see that invoice. So your head can kind of capture okay, what does that cost me? But what so many people fail to think about to your point is if I have to change this friction material again in, let's say, six or eight months, what does that cost me? But what so many people fail to think about to your point is if I have to change this friction material again in, let's say, six or eight months. So you've got labor, you've got having to purchase more product, but what about downtime?

Robert Goodwin:
20:35
How expensive is that to a fleet? Well, that can be huge. It depends on how dedicated the unit is. You can't go to Ryder and rent just whatever you want. If it's a refuse truck, what are you going to do? You're down until the wheels are moving again. So it's very important to try to pick the right product for the job. The first time, if you can do it and that's what we're here for is to try to help people guide them through and around some of the potholes that are made off. And you are right, jamie. Very often friction material is picked based on price. What's the flyer price from competitor A? Can you meet it? Is it the same? And a lot of the mistake is made that if it's 20,000-pound rated brake lining, well, they're all the same. If it's 23,000 pound rate at breaklining, that segment is all the same. But it couldn't be further from the truth. It's very important to pick the right material for the application.

Jamie Irvine:
21:29
And that's where it really stops right there.

Jamie Irvine:
21:31
It's absolutely true. So let's talk about the other side of that coin. What happens to your total cost of operation? Because really that's what we're talking about. We're talking about shifting from looking at our purchase price to looking at our total cost of operation. So what happens to our total cost of operation when we do the following One, we invest in a high quality friction material and, two, we match that up to our vocation so that it lasts longer we match that up to our vocation so that it lasts longer.

Robert Goodwin:
22:04
Well, it's going to certainly keep the unit out of the shop and that allows the shop all the time in the world to do other things. And the shop is cleaner. There is no question about it, and that goes along with occupation, health and safety and the mechanics and the techs that work around and shop labor. They're happier, and the turnover amongst that staff. It just improves everything for everybody Less turnover, happier staff, cleaner shop and the work gets done better. When you're in a well-lit, clean shop, safety rises and the quality of the work comes right along with it. So that just throws the truck on the road for way more kilometers. And when you start looking at shop maintenance you can't beat that. To utilize all the time possible to do all that you can without going out and buying any labor if it's necessary. It's huge and sometimes it's only found by trial and error and a few mistakes, and we've helped people over the years eliminate some of those mistakes.

Jamie Irvine:
23:00
Yeah, and I have seen what you are talking about, which is there is a alignment between moving off of a purchase price mindset to a total cost of operation mindset. When you do that at the fleet level, there's a connection between making that shift in how you approach purchasing and, for example, buying brakes and all these other aspects of operating a efficient fleet, operating an efficient shop. That correlation is definitely there and that has been proven time and time again from fleets all over the country, proven time and time again from fleets all over the country. We're really talking to our counter people now, as well as our people in sales. They're discussing friction material with our customers on a daily basis. Can you walk us through how our people on the counter, our outside salespeople, should help a customer to specify the right friction material for their vocation or application? Walk us through that process.

Robert Goodwin:
24:03
Well, you kind of have to divide the question into two. Number one do we know the customer? Do we know the fleet? How well do we know the fleet? What have been the pitfalls in the past and what can be corrected through getting the correct friction material? And the other side is that person that comes in for the first time. He has his old cores with him and he's just looking to buy some brakes and get out the door, and we don't know much about him or his fleet.

Robert Goodwin:
24:30
So, knowing the fleet operation like is it a low-bed fleet? We may approach a 12-and-a-quarter inch brake quite different than a 16 and a half inch brake. So that is one thing. And then, whether is it a tritum, is it a tandem fleet, is it a tritum fleet or is it a quad fleet? And the more axles there are, the more they have to work the same and be in unison. So we have to be careful and pick a piece of brake lining that's tolerant of some of these inconsistencies. Is the fleet a tractor-operated fleet or are they leasehold tractor operation that can affect the operation of the brakes on the trailer or whichever, immensely?

Robert Goodwin:
25:13
Sometimes there's a cost threshold. When you go to buy milk in a grocery store, you think about how much it is. You sort of go, wow, that's gone up in price. You pass the threshold, that little moment that's there. Don't get caught by that.

Robert Goodwin:
25:28
Sometimes we really have to find the right product to go, the right cost per mile. And then does the fleet have high horsepower engines? You give a driver horsepower, they're going to use it. We better give him good brake horsepower because he's going to use it too. It just goes hand in hand. And then we have to have just a little bit of understanding of what season we're going into. You get into some of the more southern parts of the provinces here in Canada and understanding that trucks are going to run US. There's a lot of gear that runs Florida, california. What kind of heat are they going to get into? So we got to manage that heat, remember. So all of this kind of comes into play and it can be very stressful for a counter person to show he knows what he's talking, what are she, and get these questions in their mind figured out before they approach the price and the product that's going to be sold to the customer.

Jamie Irvine:
26:33
so there's a lot to it, jamie robert, you did a great job of summarizing various ways that we need to think about the customer, their needs, and you brought up so many good points.

Jamie Irvine:
26:46
I think that it's just important for all of our people on the counter, in sales, when they are talking to our customers, to have that conversation.

Jamie Irvine:
26:55
Sometimes, when time is of the essence and they just need parts and in and out, you don't think that's not necessarily the time to have that complete conversation, but you need to get to know your customers, need to have these conversations on a regular basis with them Because, at the end of the day, the more education we can bring, the more we can help them to make good decisions when it comes to things like friction material, the more that trust between us and the customer is developed. And if you're listening right now and you are one of our customers, we want you to understand that we really care about giving you not just the product that you ask for, necessarily, but the product that you actually need, because we want you to be successful. The more successful you are, the more successful, ultimately, we are, and it really helps us to fulfill our mission to support the trucking industry. Okay, so can you go through the basics of how to identify our SCAM brakes. Walk us through the process that you go through when you're teaching people how to do this.

Robert Goodwin:
27:56
Okay, jamie, if we were to look at drive axle brakes, 16 and a half by seven as a standard size, just to keep it simple for the sake of the podcast here, in the dual anchor pin style brake that Meritor or Rockwell in the early days was known as, came into being. In the early days it was two anchor pins or one, sir, that was the question. And if it was one, we knew it had to be an Eaton brake, which I'll get into in a second. But if it was two anchor pins that held these shoes in place inside that wheel envelope, it had to be a Meritor brake. So in the early days it was three quarter inch thick block, piece of cake. Along comes design change and they decide to make this Q plus break. How are we going to differentiate it? Well, we're going to take the hump that was in the web of the Q shoe, the three quarter inch thick block. We're going to take it away. So there'll be no hump. If that is gone, it's going to be a Q plus break which has seven, eight inch thick block and for the short time it got mixed up, like you wouldn't believe. So it becomes very confusing. So the second way to check. It is the spacing between the rivet holes at either end of that brake shoe because they have a friction material standards Institute have a standard for all these drill holes. So the spacing on a Q plus break will be wider between the rivet holes than a standard 45, 15, three quarter block. So that's a way to check it. The other way is take a look at the S cam, the S cam head, and if it's an inch and three-eighths across the neck of the cam it's the old Q style brake. Do not try to put a Q plus on. If it's one and one-eighth inch you can put both a Q and a Q plus on. But you just have to rotate the cam shaft just that little more so that the rise of the S's on a Q plus cam are longer than on a Q plus on. But you just have to rotate the camshaft just that little more so that the rise of the S's on a Q plus camera longer than on a Q by its machining. So that kind of tucks, the Rockwell or the Meritor brake and all the other brands that run on that same platform, which could be Hendrickson, the Bendix, spicer style dual anchor pin brakes, are all on that same dimensional characteristic of that dual anchor pin.

Robert Goodwin:
30:26
When we go over to the Eaton brake, which utilizes a big single anchor pin, the shoe sits on either side of that one big pin. Either side of that one big pin. It's easier. The webbing on the old style or the early 4311, or the early style Eaton brake had a web that was not straight from the anchor pin to the roller. It came in narrower towards the roller and the rollers were two piece. So if you had an Eaton brake that had that design with a two-piece roller, you had to put that Eaton standard 4311 brake back on.

Robert Goodwin:
31:07
When the ES2 come along, they went to a one-piece roller and went to a 7.8 thick block themselves, went to a 7-8 thick block themselves and that brake shoe, brand spanking new out of the box, is a non-tapered brake block. The cam and the anchor end look the same. In fact they're easily mixed up in a remand shop. If you're not careful it's because the taper's built into the shoe. So that allows you to get the 7-8 thick block in where you took the old 3-quarter inch one off. But the same camshaft rules apply. If it's 1-3-8 across the neck you have to put a 45-15 back on or the old standard Eaton style.

Robert Goodwin:
31:50
If you convert that over to an inch and an eighth camshaft you can convert it to either an ES-1 or an ES ES2. And that presents another little differentiation. The early conversion to an ES style or 7-8 thick block for an Eaton had tabs on the end of the shoe table. The ES2 had the return spring holes or the anchor pin. Retainer holes were a part of the actual shoe table. The table was just a little longer to allow them to have the holes there. But either way a much greater improvement in brake life when we found that extra little one-eighth of an inch. That one-eighth of an inch had so many more miles. So it's obviously very wise to get that on whenever it's possible.

Jamie Irvine:
32:39
The reason I ask you that question is because I just wanted people to get a sense of how much goes into proper identification of friction material. And we just talked about our 16 and a half by seven brakes. We didn't talk about a drive or steer axle. We didn't talk about other dimensions. So it's very important for you to understand these different characteristics of the brakes and to learn how to identify them, how to take proper measurements, how to both visually but then to double check that your initial visual identification is actually accurate and it's going to meet the needs of the customer. Now, when we shift to air disc brake, it's a completely different scenario. So could you give us some best practices for helping parts people identify air disc brakes?

Robert Goodwin:
33:28
Well, the first is a visual. If you were to stand at the back of the trailer if it's a trailer or even a truck you'll notice that the brake chambers are fast and perpendicular to the wheel. Once you get the wheels off, they kind of look all the same. So careful identification of the caliper is probably one of the quicker ways. Bendix is very good about identifying their caliper. In fact, on North American-built trailers that have Bendix air disc brakes on, it's either an ADB22 or, in recent years, adb22lts.

Robert Goodwin:
34:07
But some other manufacturers will use other versions of that Norbrems or Bendix as we know them in North America caliper, and could use an ST7 or an SK7 caliper, as SAF Holland has done.

Robert Goodwin:
34:22
Those two calipers will have tags, a blue tag or a green tag, and each one will say which style that it is. And SAF Holland have a very, very good wall chart that we can provide anybody that would like to have one that, almost model by model, as they have transitioned through design changes into different spindle configurations and other things that they've tried to make improvements on, it'll take you right through it. It's probably one of the more confusing ones. Believe me, jamie, this is one of the biggest challenges we have as a parts distributor aftermarket parts distributor is to identify air dish brake designs, because there are so many trailer builders that maybe in one model year they lean towards Haldex or SAF Holland and then the first thing you know, there's a wobco under whatever this wheel is. It can be really, really tricky. You really got to pull that pad off. The pad will tell us exactly what is on that unit for air to spray.

Jamie Irvine:
35:32
When I was learning the parts business and we were focused more on the S-cam style brakes. When we were identifying drums you were looking at the bolt hole pattern, the number of studs, and we would take measurements and then we had our charts and we could compare them. Is there something similar for the actual disc in the air disc brake system?

Robert Goodwin:
35:54
Yes, there is. But air dish brakes are a whole different animal. The hub has to be pulled in every case to change the rotor. There is a hat style, there's a flat style, there's a spline style to these rotors and depending on the brand of the air dish brake system, they will employ one or another or whatever. There is no rule of thumb really. That is reliable. He didn't know what he's into until that trailer's in and the wheels are off. Oh my God, what's in it? What's this? Where am I going to go for this? So it's in our best interest to be right up on the right questions to ask is a hat style is a fine style? How many studs are there? Is there a number on the hub? That steel or aluminum hub should have a number on it. That usually is designed to marry up only with a certain style rotor. So if we can find one or the other we can get the guy going. We keep a wide variety of air to spray components, especially hubs and rotors.

Jamie Irvine:
37:07
Robert, thank you so much for going through that in such detail. I really appreciate it. I'd like to shift the conversation now back to that conversation that we had earlier where we were talking about resisting the urge to look at just purchase price to really invest in high quality friction material that is going to lower your total cost of operation. Could you share with me an example of a customer that we had who overcame the urge to buy cheap brakes, made the investment, and what was the situation and what ended up happening?

Robert Goodwin:
37:44
So we get a call from an outside salesman, have this fleet that began buying brakes from us by the skid, and here in Atlantic Canada it happens, but it's more unusual than eight or ten boxes of brakes at a time, Whole skid. Wow, what's going on? And then it shifts from wow, I'm spending a lot of money. I got to try to get the cost down on all this product. And then the question comes through you've got to have something cheaper. Well, we take the box out of the picture, we take the hardware kit out to make the price look better. It does, but you're not getting a hardware kit, you need it. And after a while we got to a spot where there's no more room to go. There's no more cost savings to be had. Finally, the outside salesman for this customer said when you come? When can you come visit with me to visit this customer? He's going through breaks on a pretty regular basis. Got to help him. So we sit down with the customer. The first thing comes up you've got to lower my cost per mile. I said okay, we need to talk about you buying a more expensive, higher quality brake. And he just sat back in his chair. What makes you think I'm going to go for that. I'm already spending too much.

Robert Goodwin:
39:05
So we went through the process of talking about cost per mile. Produce this little form. We talk about it with the customer. And I said to the customer it's going to be a year's worth of commitment. Your fleet is large enough. We're going to have to go through all your trucks and all your trailers and upgrade them to this better product. If you've got the stomach for that in your budget, you're gonna be the winner.

Robert Goodwin:
39:31
Well, fast forward, a year goes and actually it was like 14 months go by. We have another meeting and all along we had phone conversations how we doing little updates and all this and that we sit down and he said to me he said the saving in that particular fleet of about 50 tractors and 90 odd trailers was in almost $100,000. And it was a big enough number. They didn't believe it, but it was. By investing 8% and 10% more in that brake job he saved all that money. So the proof is in the pudding, jamie, but you have to have the stomach to see it through. There is better product out there and it will do what we say it will do.

Jamie Irvine:
40:20
Robert, thank you so much for being on the podcast. Robert Goodwin is our manager of Customer Care Help Desk in Eastern Canada. He has 53 years' in heavy duty parts and we were so glad to have you on the podcast where we could get a little bit of that experience from you. Thanks, Robert.

Robert Goodwin:
40:37
Thank you very much, Jamie, for the invitation. Really enjoyed the opportunity.

Jamie Irvine:
40:41
Thank you. I told you Robert was a legend. He didn't disappoint. You can really hear his years of experience when he's talking about the subject of brakes. Now, it's one thing to select the correct brake parts for your application and making a good purchase decision. It's another to make sure that the service work on your vehicle, especially when it comes to your brakes, is done correctly. And this episode wouldn't be complete without a discussion about the fundamentals of both inspecting and repairing your brakes. To help us with that, I have invited Phil Hutton, service manager in our Dartmouth location, to the podcast to talk to us about the service side of brakes. Phil, welcome to the podcast.

Phil Hutton:
41:27
Hi, jamie, nice to be here.

Jamie Irvine:
41:29
Glad to have you here And've been talking about brakes in this episode, and I wanted to conclude this episode with a discussion about just exactly what's involved, to kind of give people an idea. Maybe drivers or parts people they're involved in the process but they don't really know what the technicians do to make sure that brakes are inspected correctly and make sure that when they do that inspection, you know we're able to catch things before they become a problem. So let's go through the steps together. What is the first step that a technician should do when preparing to do a brake inspection?

Phil Hutton:
42:07
Well, firstly, jamie, obviously we've got to talk about the safety aspects. We've got to make sure that the truck is in the right position, secured with wheel chocks and all the usual safety stuff. If we're going to be lifting the truck up, we've got to make sure that the jacks and the axle stands are the right rating and that everything is correct. Let's just get that one out of the way because obviously it's paramount to us. You know safety. So firstly, with a brake check, you know we want to look in generally from outside. We want to look at all the components are in the right place, you know the brake chambers where they should be, and securely fastened, you know. So we're just looking at general security to start with before we start getting into the nitty-gritty of it. So that's what generally we're looking at Wheels are in place, nuts, that sort of thing, because all these are going to have a factor on the braking system as a whole in general, so what I'm hearing is proper preparation prevents poor performance, exactly Right, okay.

Jamie Irvine:
43:05
So from the safety perspective, when we have the vehicle safely secured, we're confident now that we can move forward. Is there anything on the tooling side that usually you like to get ready ahead of time or you like to have your technicians prepare? Walk me through just what they do there and what is the first step of the inspection what is the first step of the inspection In a wheel-off inspection?

Phil Hutton:
43:29
obviously we're going to be having the wheels off. They're going to need a wheel gun, sockets and all that stuff. Probably a hammer Tape measure is going to be key in this situation. Nothing too technical regards tooling, but those are some of the few things that will be needed as we move through this.

Jamie Irvine:
43:47
Okay, so now I've got the safety, I've got my tools ready. Let's get into the actual inspection. Talk to me about that initial visual inspection. What is the technician looking for?

Phil Hutton:
43:59
Again, we're looking. Obviously we're looking for obvious signs of breakage. You know brake linings that are either cracked, broken or missing. You know bent steel work Things are in the right place. Springs there's two or three springs involved inside the brakes, making sure that everything is in place and where it should be. You know rollers there's anchor pins, rollers there's various items that need to be in place. We're going to look at things like are we lubricated properly? You know the generalization. We're going to look at things like are the chambers correct? From one side to the other, things happen in the field. Things get changed because there isn't one available and they need to get out of a tight spot. So we've got to make sure that chambers are correct. Slack adjusters are the same from side to side, because it's good practice to have the same items and makes and models on the same vehicle.

Phil Hutton:
44:59
So those are the sorts of things that we're going to as we start getting deeper into it. Those are the key points that we need to take care of before we move further.

Jamie Irvine:
45:08
Yeah, it's a good point about things being the same both sides of the axle. You're absolutely right, those things do happen. So let's just go on an assumption here that we haven't found anything obviously broken, but we still need to assess whether or not a brake job is needed. So these are wear items. So walk me through the process of establishing okay, do I need to change the drums? Do I need to change the friction material? How do we get there?

Phil Hutton:
45:41
There's a fair bit of measuring there is, you know, from the linings there is a certain thickness requirement that's needed. Good signs From the linings there is a certain thickness requirement. That's needed. Good signs. On a larger truck we have rivets. Obviously if they're protruding or wearing then we're obviously needed changing things. But there are other shoes available where they're bonded, so rivets are not clear. So there are minimum requirements for certain shoe thicknesses and linings that have to be met for MVI or safety standards.

Phil Hutton:
46:21
Drums likewise. They come at a certain size and they have to meet those requirements. So on a 16.5-inch drum, as an example, although they can change, you're allowed 120,000 oversize. So that goes from 16.5 to 16.620. Those are your maximum figures or you've got to fall in between those. So those are the nuts and bolts of brakes, so to speak, the shoes and the drums. There's a lot more surrounding them.

Phil Hutton:
46:47
You know when you're measuring things. You know a big complaint of a lot of customers is, you know, they got 300,000 out of their first brake job and the next brake job only lasted 150,000 or 200,000. Why is that? You know, they think we sell substandard parts or a lot of those loads, substandard parts or those lines. What they've got to realize if they're changing their own parts, they have to make sure that camshaft, bushings, all the things, fall within spec, because any wear on these is going to add extra wear further down the line, you know. So spending a little bit of money bringing those cams back up to specifications would pay off dividends down the line in longevity of the job that you're doing.

Jamie Irvine:
47:32
In addition to all of the foundation brake components, what about the general air brake system that this is all connected to? What do you do there to make sure that you're not missing anything?

Phil Hutton:
47:45
So, specifically, you know the technicians bringing it in and and I would advise that any technician does this you know it's a brake problem. Well, let's get back to the thing that's activating and that's doing that the air system, right. So when we're checking brakes and you're doing adjustments, so to speak, you know, make sure, when we're checking stroke length, that that has to be between 90 and 100 psi. Firstly, can the truck achieve that? You know you're going to make sure that it can get up to the air pressure required. You also want to check that we're not leaking. So, putting your foot on the brake, building up to pressure first, let's stop two minutes. Does that pressure drop? Put your foot on the brake, same procedure again. Do we get any pressure droppage? You know you don't want to see much more than five PSI drop over those two items where you're just checking. That means you know your air system is in good standing and you know you make a reasonable assumption that you can move forward with the rest of the repair.

Jamie Irvine:
48:41
Yeah. So now you've done all of this work, you've replaced the necessary parts, you're putting it all back together again. When we're at that point, what do we have to think about in terms of making sure the brakes are properly adjusted and functionally testing them to make sure that everything is good?

Phil Hutton:
48:59
We're going to. We're going to check the broke brake stroke now. So we're going to adjust the slack adjusters and we're going to check for free play first. So we adjust the slack adjusters and we're going to check for free play first. So we adjust the slack adjuster to where we think it should be and then we're going to check free play, that's the distance between the brake shoe and the drum before it makes contact. How we do that as a technician, we'll take a lever and pry on that slack adjuster and we're looking for a measurement between somewhere around 5-8 to 7-8 of an inch. And how we measure that is from the base of the chamber to normally, the center pin of the slack adjuster, the clevis pin. So that's the free play you're kind of looking for. Remember, that is just a guideline at this stage. You know what I mean.

Phil Hutton:
49:50
Next, what you'll have to do is making sure the air is up to pressure, apply the brakes with a, you know, between a 90 and 100 psi air pressure. This should give you a full brake stroke application. And again, you have to measure the brake strokes. Now, depending on the chambers, the position of the chambers, the size of the chambers, that stroke does change, um, so I'm not going to tell you. You know it's going to be a, an inch and a half or two inches or whatever it is, but there is specifications out there. So whether you've got somebody to help you, you know, press the brake, brake, the brake pedal, or you've got something that enables you to do that, um, so that's where you go from.

Phil Hutton:
50:29
Also, what I would check and not a lot of people do. Again, those things are changed out in the field. Were they done correctly? Checking brake geometry is is important as well. You know, when the brakes are fully, uh, you know depressed, and you've got a full brake stroke application, the push rod of the chamber and the slack adjuster should be at 90 degrees. This will give you your maximum, you know, uh, force available to you. You know what I mean. Not a lot of that is checked very often, you know. We make a lot of assumptions, you know.

Jamie Irvine:
51:00
So that's important to check that too so, as you can tell, there's quite a bit to this. Now the brake job. Brake job is done to the parts for trucks standard and we're ready now to give the vehicle back to our customer. What can they expect in the way of documentation? What do we do internally to make sure that we've done things correctly? What do we communicate to the customer?

Phil Hutton:
51:33
Normally within the work order we will explain what we do and explaining that the vehicle is now within specification to the OEM standards and we also internally monitor those and log those measurements for future reference and any issues, obviously that do happen in the future. We also make recommendations for the customer of any other repairs that may be needed or along the lines of you know, future problems that might occur for those guys and hopefully we give the customers as much information as we can to keep them happy.

Jamie Irvine:
52:00
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, phil, thank you so much for walking us through this process. It gives people insight into what is involved. It's one thing to buy the right parts. It's another thing to also have them installed correctly and have it all come together with a vehicle that keeps cost of operation down and operates safely. Safety is a big concern for everyone involved. If you'd like to have one of our many service centers across the country work on one of your vehicles, head over to partsfortruckscom forward slash service and you'll be able to get in contact with one of our service managers and go from there. Phil, thank you so much for taking time. I know you're busy in the shop. Really appreciate you being on the podcast.

Phil Hutton:
52:42
No problem, Thanks.

Jamie Irvine:
52:43
Jamie. These three interviews have been just packed with great information. The years of experience of these three individuals really shone through and it was a real privilege to be able to put this together for you. You've been listening to the Parts for Trucks podcast. I'm your host, jamie Irvin. In this episode we got this masterclass in brakes, but we're going to cover a lot more on the podcast than just breaks. So if you like the content that you're hearing, head over to partsfortruckscom slash podcast or go to wherever you get your podcasts. Make sure you follow the show for free so you don't miss out on any of the upcoming deep dives that we're going to do on everything related to heavy duty parts service. Thank you for tuning in to this episode of the Parts for Trucks podcast and, as always, I want to thank you for being heavy duty.